So evidence that goes against a number of religious ideas is actually “god in undercover”, because as he created everything, anything i would come up with is meaningless, because it is his creation anyway? twis…ted logic indeed, still, let me get it straight: are you saying that he very fact that everything exists is a *direct* proof of his existence? that anything existing in this world is sure to have been created by *the christian god himself*? now, matter existing in the universe is not direct proof of course that a creator, let alone the christian god of the bible as we know it created the world. hell, by that rationale, it could have been krishna or brahma or allah or whatnot. not being able to know where matter came from implies nothing, only the obvious: we. don’t. know. it implies nothing else. not even that there has to be at all an ever-existing entity to create everything. it CAN exist, of course. we just don’t have anything to imply that it does. you don’t know it, i don’t either. *firmly* believing that this creator exists is dumb. saying that it *might* exist is the only rational way to go. of course in the same fashion, declaring that there is no creator as it was a fact is dumb too. people should accept that neither side knows the truth for sure, that’s why all of the “i’m 110% sure of this and that” declarations are just delusions, be them pro- or anti-creationist.

the problem with people being sure about either of these is a very obvious one: when the universe came into existence, nobody. was. actually. there. thus we can only speculate, you and me included. i know that i can’t really be sure of anything that i don’t witness first-hand, but do you? or do you believe that you can declare with 100% certainty that you know what happened back then?

“but then why are the two theories are so different, if you’re saying that neither of them are surely true? why do you accept one and not the other?” because the difference between my view of the world and yours is that mine possesses “pieces of the puzzle” in scientific findings, and yours has none, just the very existence of the universe (look at it! doesn’t it scream of creation?!), which is in itself is no implication, let alone evidence for anything, because, as i’ve said before, it is based on the human concept of “something screams of something”, which is a gut feeling or opinion, nothing else.

ah, the 500 witnesses. i’ll ask you again: did any of them leave first-hand evidence about seeing Jesus resurrect? no. the events written in the bible are all hearsay. no actual contemporary of Jesus wrote even a single line in the bible, thus the tale of the 500 people who saw him ascend is just something that the people who wrote it simply heard, or, god forbid, made up.

your life changing for the better is as subjective as it gets. i agree that religion can be and usually is good for individual people, because they find a meaning for their lives, thus become more productive and happy. i have no problem with that, in fact, i think religion really changes individual people for the better. my grandmother’s sister for example is an even more “hardcore” believer in Christ than you are, and she’s constantly telling us that she’s been SO MUCH better off since finding god. good for her. really. and i’m not even attempting to have a conversation with her about this, because, for one, doing so in english is much more fascinating, but also because her rationalizations as to why the stuff she believes is true are so outrageous that reasoning with her is completely impossible. i’m happy that you’re not like that, but expecting me to believe what you say solely because you’ve experienced all of it is not too far from it.

god’s been screaming, eh? so he doesn’t want to remain hidden, but wants the people to KNOW that he exists? why doesn’t he prove it in a non-obscure way then? would that take away our free will to believe in him? bollocks. that’s only a bullet-proof rationalization, designed against this very question. but if you stand by it, and i believe you do, why did Jesus supposedly perform obvious miracles in front of hundreds of people? wouldn’t that take away their free will to believe in him as god? see, there is no sensible reason as to why god would “scream” his existence at us through hazy concepts, while in the meantime, failing to perform an objective act of miracle, which would prove for everyone in an instant that he indeed exists.
or there may be a reason: he hates sensible people.

Mengele: there were not only him, but a lot of deranged people, yes, mainly nazis, who experimented on people in unimaginable ways. but. they didn’t do it for the sake of the advancement of our species, but so that they can rule the world. that is not science. that’s killing people for selfish reasons and not for the good of the human race. torturing/killing/maiming/whathaveyou someone for selfish reasons and people dying in the process of the betterment of humanity are not even remotely in the same ballpark. science helps humanity advance. people torturing and killing others to develop weapons to take over the world does not. don’t confuse science with selfish mass murder. they both involve deaths, yes, but one of them is justified through everything humanity has become, the other one is just pointless, selfish killing.

if we’re at this topic though, let me remind you that the christian church killed people simply because they were not christian. they thought that the act of killing non-christians would genuinely make earth a better place. nazi officers in contrast probably knew that their endeavours would only benefit THEM and that they are selfish deeds, but the church firmly believed that god is the one who tells them to do this, so that it is justified, and even right. i’m not saying that i somehow hold you responsible for all the murder committed by the church simply because you believe in god. i understand you don’t believe in the institution itself, but Jesus, who has nothing to do with the church, as a result, you obviously don’t endorse any kind of church-approved killing, or anything it has ever done that went against the teachings of Jesus.

your religion being the right one: if i understand you correctly, you’re saying that Jesus alone is the proof that the christian faith is indeed the correct one. what about the other prophets who existed, just as Jesus did? why it is not them you’re following? all religions state that the glory of god is above all, name one that doesn’t. all of them say that all creatures are revelations and reflections of a certain god’s glory, for it was he/she who created them of course. christianity is in no way special. you could be a muslim, having the exact same mindset, having the exact same arguments of admitting god’s glory, not putting yourself but god in the middle, etc, the only difference would be your customs and the name of the god&prophet pair you believe in. the ideas you’re saying are not christian-specific, but are present in every religion i’ve ever heard of which has one single god to it. thoughts?

I too have really enjoyed this. I am and will continue to pray for you, that you will be willing to be open to things spiritual; but also that God will continue to reveal Himself to you in ways you are able to understand. Oh, one more tho…ught regarding my faith being the “right” one. Religion is essentially man’s way of trying to reach God…and most religions are based on what are called “works”…you do this and you get this from god. My faith is the exact opposite: I cannot do anything to earn anything from God, and I don’t have to because He has done it all in the person of Jesus. His grace (unmerited favor) paid everything for me, for you and for every person on the planet. Lastly, life for me is not about man’s glory, but the naturalist and rationalist have put man at the center of everything and have made life about man’s glory. That’s why we’re so screwed up, even in various world religions…it’s about man at the center. In my faith, it starts with the glory of God as revealed in all of creation and all of His creatures. Each one of us is a reflection of His glory, and everything in the natural world is a reflection of His amazingly creative glory. Instead of starting from the bottom up, I begin from the top down, which brings a sobriety and a humility (in the most positive sense of the word) as I recognize that the God of the universe has chosen me to bring glory to Himself and to usher His love into this world through every means possible. And you know what, it’s ok if you think I’m a fool and foolish….the Bible has already said you would think this way about me and it’s ok. I bless you with all of His blessings in Jesus! Thank you for this amazing dialogue! You are a treasure!

Upon reflection of my answer to you regarding religion, I know you will be upset about my comment about the muslim faith. You will probably say something like “how can you say that your truth is any more true than theirs?” Well, according… to you, ALL of us are completely wrong and deluded in our thinking so what does it matter to you what I believe or what anyone believes? You are the god of your own universe and you have your own way of approaching life, which is to toss out anything and everything that cannot be scientifically proven according to YOUR standards. I say this (not in connection to the muslim faith or religion at all) but in connection with your comments about miracles not being recorded and proven by doctors. Bence, again, I will find you articles and reports of medically documented “proof” that people have been healed supernaturally if you would like. You may ask why aren’t these reported world-wide? Well, DUH, the mainstream media is completely against anything that would even hint there being a God or something being supernatural in origin or in nature. Our western minds have completely shut out the possibility that the spiritual world even exists. You see, the spiritual mind can receive and comprehend that which is spiritual, while the natural mind cannot. that sounds simplistic, but that is the bare bones truth. See how much of a struggle you are having dealing with the spiritual side of reality? That’s because you have shut it down completely and have reduced everything to the very limited realm of the “seen” world when there is an unseen world that is just as real and just as powerful as the seen world. You have shut down half of who you are and are therefore unable to comprehend spiritual truths. You want spiritual truths to take on the form that YOU believe they should, making YOU to be god of your own universe. Ok, now I’m going to go read your three latest responses…..

Abortion: again, it is not *life* we’re arguing about, but being human. what do you mean my argument is so lame? could you elaborate? then who draws the line on what constitutes human and what does not? god? how will we know where he drew i…t? how do you know he draws it at the sperm touching the egg? an apple tree is not an apple tree until it doesn’t look like one. until then, it is just a seed. if your morals prohibit the killing of trees, you can still go into the ground and remove the seed, because it is just a seed, and a seed by definition is not a tree. human “seeds” if you will are not human beings, hence doctors are not “annihilating generations of human beings”, because the fetuses were never human beings to begin with, and whether they are or aren’t is 100% subjective; or is there an objective, absolute, ultimate standpoint on that? what is it and why is it objective, and what is it based on? feel free to express why you think abortion is outrageous, answering these questions in the process.

i think the word delusional needs some explanation: it is someone who believes in something with certainty in spite of massive evidence showing the contrary. now, what part of this applies to doctors performing abortion? because you just called them delusional (and evil, but being evil is subjective here, because it is based on your opinions on this matter, while being delusional is not, so i’ll just deal with the delusional part).

you’re going back to your “everything around us screams of a designer” argument, which i dealt with a couple hundred times during our discussion. just because our limied human mind cannot comprehend the workings of the universe, does it mean that there surely is a creator? not in the slightest, so the “this is too complex to have been a coincidence” argument is null. i repeat, null. if you think it is not, explain why not, but please, stay away from subjective claims, such as “i as a human being think (thus it must be true) that the world is too complex to have been…” because this argument is based on comprehension of our human minds being in accord with the universe’s workings, and that our concept of “too complicated” can be used when defining why the world came to exist; and those are some seriously wrong suppositions.
you gave me no objective examples that even suggest that there is a designer. all of your examples can be explained via non-god-involving ways, but if i missed something, and you have something truly objective in mind, feel free to share.

you still don’t get why i’m not religious. it has nothing to do with me not wanting to be held accountable for my actions, but everything to do with me choosing not to believe in something that there is no evidence of.
of course i could be wrong! but that DOESN’T mean you’re automatically right!
person a: might be anything, i’m not sure, i might even be wrong.
person b: it was god. i’m 100% sure. i’m so not wrong.
which mindset is better suited to consider other possibilities other than what it currently believes? person a? you bet. imagine someone who believes in another, false religion so blindly that there is nothing to convince him otherwise. for me, you are that person.

“I and the millions of other TRUE believers in the world are completely out of our minds, wrong, and have been the cause of all the problems in the world today. THAT, my friend, is a rash, judgemental statement to make.”
did i say that? not exactly. religion itself is to blame for many problems today, however not for ALL the problems of course, and i never said that, neither that individual peaceful people mindig their own business are the cause. i said religion as an idea, as a way of thinking does that, not individual people. that’s why i have no problem with religious individuals, it’s just the effects of HALF THE WORLD being religious that i hate, because it sways the whole of humanity towards “not thinking”.

“When one loses connection with the Creator, he has to invent his own form of reality”
haha, there’s no way i’m going to be the one inventing a form of reality. oh, no. i have all the evidence i need to know that the world i live in is the actual world i actually live in. YOU and half the world are the ones who invent unseen, unknowable, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient beings. i only believe in what i am sure of, and i am only sure of what i can sense with my senses. i don’t “believe”, i “know”, and i “know” because i “experience”. you “know” because you “believe”, and that is a huge difference.

another thought: saying that through abortion, doctors “[annihilate] generations of human beings” is like saying i’m slaughtering puppies because i got my dog sterilized. preventing someone/something from being created is not the same as killing it.

This is the same thing i’ve been mentioning throughout our debate. just because our science doesn’t know of something does not imply that that something h…as to be the handiwork of god. it just implies that we are unable to find the probably non-miraculous explanation just yet.

of course i admit that today’s science does not know all the answers, but assuming (let alone being 110% sure) that god is involved in every phenomenon which we don’t know much (or anything) about is, for lack of a better word, dumb, because just look at history: there were quite a number of things that were attributed to god, until they were revealed to be natural phenomena, devoid of any divine component.

again, just because we don’t have answers to everything doesn’t mean that the answers are divine. they MIGHT be divine, but see, there’s the difference between you and me. i say i don’t know (because, let’s face it, no one does), you say you know “beyond a shadow of a doubt” that it was your god. now, in actuality, you don’t “know”, you simply “believe”. i agree on something not being able to have come from nothing, but that’s not “short-changing science”, but saying “science does not know”. again, and i can’t stress this enough: you. don’t. know. either. this is something we can hopefully agree on, otherwise we can stop going around in circles right now. you being SURE is just you having faith, nothing else. do you know how ridiculous “i, as a human being, am *TOTALLY SURE* how the universe came into existence” sounds?

probably no human being will ever know how it came to exist, let alone how matter itself came about. the ones who say they do know, are lying or are delusional. there is no other explanation. oh wait, there is. god. but that assumption is just a BELIEF that people have, and in no way verifiable other than religious people having a certain feeling in themselves, namely, faith, which is, by definition, is believing in something that you have no evidence of, thus faith alone can not be accepted as proof.

bottom line: if we can not agree on the following statement being true, than there is no point in continuing our discussion about whether the universe was created with intent or was simply a coincidence:
no human being knows how the universe, or matter in the universe came to exist (we can speculate of course while having science or religion on our sides, but that’s another story; right now, no human knows for sure).

on another note, i admit looking up those scientists, yes i found that they are indeed actual scientists, but the rest of the scientific community heavily opposes their creationist views, because they consider creationism a belief (no surprise there), for there is not even remotely enough empirical evidence to support it.