So evidence that goes against a number of religious ideas is actually “god in undercover”, because as he created everything, anything i would come up with is meaningless, because it is his creation anyway? twis…ted logic indeed, still, let me get it straight: are you saying that he very fact that everything exists is a *direct* proof of his existence? that anything existing in this world is sure to have been created by *the christian god himself*? now, matter existing in the universe is not direct proof of course that a creator, let alone the christian god of the bible as we know it created the world. hell, by that rationale, it could have been krishna or brahma or allah or whatnot. not being able to know where matter came from implies nothing, only the obvious: we. don’t. know. it implies nothing else. not even that there has to be at all an ever-existing entity to create everything. it CAN exist, of course. we just don’t have anything to imply that it does. you don’t know it, i don’t either. *firmly* believing that this creator exists is dumb. saying that it *might* exist is the only rational way to go. of course in the same fashion, declaring that there is no creator as it was a fact is dumb too. people should accept that neither side knows the truth for sure, that’s why all of the “i’m 110% sure of this and that” declarations are just delusions, be them pro- or anti-creationist.

the problem with people being sure about either of these is a very obvious one: when the universe came into existence, nobody. was. actually. there. thus we can only speculate, you and me included. i know that i can’t really be sure of anything that i don’t witness first-hand, but do you? or do you believe that you can declare with 100% certainty that you know what happened back then?

“but then why are the two theories are so different, if you’re saying that neither of them are surely true? why do you accept one and not the other?” because the difference between my view of the world and yours is that mine possesses “pieces of the puzzle” in scientific findings, and yours has none, just the very existence of the universe (look at it! doesn’t it scream of creation?!), which is in itself is no implication, let alone evidence for anything, because, as i’ve said before, it is based on the human concept of “something screams of something”, which is a gut feeling or opinion, nothing else.

ah, the 500 witnesses. i’ll ask you again: did any of them leave first-hand evidence about seeing Jesus resurrect? no. the events written in the bible are all hearsay. no actual contemporary of Jesus wrote even a single line in the bible, thus the tale of the 500 people who saw him ascend is just something that the people who wrote it simply heard, or, god forbid, made up.

your life changing for the better is as subjective as it gets. i agree that religion can be and usually is good for individual people, because they find a meaning for their lives, thus become more productive and happy. i have no problem with that, in fact, i think religion really changes individual people for the better. my grandmother’s sister for example is an even more “hardcore” believer in Christ than you are, and she’s constantly telling us that she’s been SO MUCH better off since finding god. good for her. really. and i’m not even attempting to have a conversation with her about this, because, for one, doing so in english is much more fascinating, but also because her rationalizations as to why the stuff she believes is true are so outrageous that reasoning with her is completely impossible. i’m happy that you’re not like that, but expecting me to believe what you say solely because you’ve experienced all of it is not too far from it.

god’s been screaming, eh? so he doesn’t want to remain hidden, but wants the people to KNOW that he exists? why doesn’t he prove it in a non-obscure way then? would that take away our free will to believe in him? bollocks. that’s only a bullet-proof rationalization, designed against this very question. but if you stand by it, and i believe you do, why did Jesus supposedly perform obvious miracles in front of hundreds of people? wouldn’t that take away their free will to believe in him as god? see, there is no sensible reason as to why god would “scream” his existence at us through hazy concepts, while in the meantime, failing to perform an objective act of miracle, which would prove for everyone in an instant that he indeed exists.
or there may be a reason: he hates sensible people.

Mengele: there were not only him, but a lot of deranged people, yes, mainly nazis, who experimented on people in unimaginable ways. but. they didn’t do it for the sake of the advancement of our species, but so that they can rule the world. that is not science. that’s killing people for selfish reasons and not for the good of the human race. torturing/killing/maiming/whathaveyou someone for selfish reasons and people dying in the process of the betterment of humanity are not even remotely in the same ballpark. science helps humanity advance. people torturing and killing others to develop weapons to take over the world does not. don’t confuse science with selfish mass murder. they both involve deaths, yes, but one of them is justified through everything humanity has become, the other one is just pointless, selfish killing.

if we’re at this topic though, let me remind you that the christian church killed people simply because they were not christian. they thought that the act of killing non-christians would genuinely make earth a better place. nazi officers in contrast probably knew that their endeavours would only benefit THEM and that they are selfish deeds, but the church firmly believed that god is the one who tells them to do this, so that it is justified, and even right. i’m not saying that i somehow hold you responsible for all the murder committed by the church simply because you believe in god. i understand you don’t believe in the institution itself, but Jesus, who has nothing to do with the church, as a result, you obviously don’t endorse any kind of church-approved killing, or anything it has ever done that went against the teachings of Jesus.

your religion being the right one: if i understand you correctly, you’re saying that Jesus alone is the proof that the christian faith is indeed the correct one. what about the other prophets who existed, just as Jesus did? why it is not them you’re following? all religions state that the glory of god is above all, name one that doesn’t. all of them say that all creatures are revelations and reflections of a certain god’s glory, for it was he/she who created them of course. christianity is in no way special. you could be a muslim, having the exact same mindset, having the exact same arguments of admitting god’s glory, not putting yourself but god in the middle, etc, the only difference would be your customs and the name of the god&prophet pair you believe in. the ideas you’re saying are not christian-specific, but are present in every religion i’ve ever heard of which has one single god to it. thoughts?

Upon reflection of my answer to you regarding religion, I know you will be upset about my comment about the muslim faith. You will probably say something like “how can you say that your truth is any more true than theirs?” Well, according… to you, ALL of us are completely wrong and deluded in our thinking so what does it matter to you what I believe or what anyone believes? You are the god of your own universe and you have your own way of approaching life, which is to toss out anything and everything that cannot be scientifically proven according to YOUR standards. I say this (not in connection to the muslim faith or religion at all) but in connection with your comments about miracles not being recorded and proven by doctors. Bence, again, I will find you articles and reports of medically documented “proof” that people have been healed supernaturally if you would like. You may ask why aren’t these reported world-wide? Well, DUH, the mainstream media is completely against anything that would even hint there being a God or something being supernatural in origin or in nature. Our western minds have completely shut out the possibility that the spiritual world even exists. You see, the spiritual mind can receive and comprehend that which is spiritual, while the natural mind cannot. that sounds simplistic, but that is the bare bones truth. See how much of a struggle you are having dealing with the spiritual side of reality? That’s because you have shut it down completely and have reduced everything to the very limited realm of the “seen” world when there is an unseen world that is just as real and just as powerful as the seen world. You have shut down half of who you are and are therefore unable to comprehend spiritual truths. You want spiritual truths to take on the form that YOU believe they should, making YOU to be god of your own universe. Ok, now I’m going to go read your three latest responses…..

Throughout this discussion, you have tried to see the God I believe in as somehow within the grasp of full human understanding.. In other words, you want to be able to reach out and touch God in the flesh, and if you cannot, then He does no…t exist. Well, He gave that opportunity 2000 years ago in the person of Jesus, who, as you yourself said, they cannot find the bones of, because He’s no longer dead…He’s alive. God in His grace and mercy, revealed Himself to us in Jesus. We today don’t have the advantage of touching Jesus in the flesh, but we can touch Him in the Spirit, but you are not willing to go there because you are tied to the physical world alone and cannot even fathom that there could be a spirit realm. Plus, Jesus’ true followers DO reveal who He is in the flesh, albeit VERY imperfectly most of the time (at least I know I am VERY imperfect), and you refuse to see that either. You judge all religion based on history books rather than on living believers today, who are right there with you and I can put you in contact with TRUE BELIEVERS if you need living, scientific proof, rather than basing your judgements on what publishers of history books have chosen to include. Plus, you are right, there are many “so called believers” who are what Jesus referred to as “RELIGIOUS” and even HE was very critical of them! In fact, he was the MOST critical of religious people because they did not practice what they preached and were, as he called them, “empty tombs”, beautiful on the outside, but dead on the inside. You cannot be religious and be a follower of Jesus….you have to have a living relationship with Him.

Here is one thing I want to respond to. You said: I’m just saying that its source is just simply not a creator, but the self-conscious beings ar…ound me, who figured it out …thanks to their intellect, which is the result of evolution, which is the result of chance….. This is exactly what I’m talking about. You refuse to take your arguments to the FINAL conclusion. You take them to the conclusion that suits you, which is that there was some matter and out of that chaotic matter over millions of years evolved into something meaningful. Where did the matter come from? You don’t have an answer. Period. You don’t know. You cannot answer that with any scientific proof, and you never will be able to because something cannot come from nothing. It must come from something. Therefore that something is what I and millions of others know beyond a shadow of a doubt is God. It has to be because there is no other logical conclusion to reach. Your logical conclusion is that matter came from nothing which completely contradicts ALL science. You cannot stop until you reach the logical conclusions of your arguments. To do so is to short-change science. Plus, I assume you did extensive research on those in the video to determine that they are not “real” scientists. You did, didn’t you? More later.

I quote you here: ” there has never been a *scientifically proven* miraculous healing of someone, or any proven divine intervention for that matter. period.” You are being quite bold to make such a statement. There ARE a plethora of scientifically proven miraculous healings…you just don’t want to believe them because they are outside your grid of the miraculous being scientifically explained.

Let me give you a very odd but personal example: scientific experiments on my cat proved time and time again that only 1/2 of one of his kidneys was functioning. Three months ago, more scientific experiments showed/proved that BOTH of his kidneys are fully functioning and healthy. Now, scientifically speaking, kidneys do not regenerate or heal. Once they are dead they are dead. One of his kidneys was completely dead. Now you are probably thinking I’m totally nutty to say that I believe God healed my cat. I do believe this because I know my God, I asked Him to heal my cat, and I have the scientific evidence of his supernatural healing. There is scientific proof that he has been healed and nothing, no medicine, nothing could have made his dead kidney come alive, nor could there have been a “mind over matter” thing that happened in him cuz he is a cat.

Similarly, my friend here who used to be a cop was shot in the arm. She had a pellet lodged in her arm for 7 years which hurt like CRAZY if you even brushed up against that place on her arm with hardly a feather’s touch. I felt the steel pellet with my own fingers. She has prayed for years that God would remove it. Nothing has happened. Does that discount that God heals? No. You see, we believers are able to live in the ambiguity of life….and there is a LOT of ambiguity in life….so, back to my friend. She was leaving a worship service where she wasn’t even asking the Lord about herself, and somebody brushed up against her arm where the pellet has been lodged for 7 years and it didn’t hurt. so, she pulled back her sleeve and touched her arm. not only was the pellet completely gone, but there was NO pain whatsoever and it is still the same today. I know how you will try to explain this: it flowed into her body and is somewhere else. But it isn’t…it’s gone, gone, and there’s no scientific explanation for it…one minute it was there and the next it was gone and all pain was removed.

You also mentioned that there are not scientifically proven healings where limbs have grown back…yes there are. Plenty of them in Africa. There are also people who have been dead for days who have been raised from the dead, proven by doctors, and are perfectly fine. But, to me, it sounds like you already have a bias against these things….like even if you read a book with doctor’s testimonies of supernatural healings you would still not believe it because it entails the possibility that there is a god who loves to heal his children. I believe we are at this point in this discussion: you want everyone to let go of their beliefs in any sort of god and only adhere to atheistic thinking based on scientific “proof” that can only been seen in the tangible world. You almost appear to be upset a bit and even angry with the idea that people would believe in god.

Well, I am as equally upset with scientists who have “concluded” that the “tissue” in a mother’s womb is not really a living being and can be “disposed” of because this completely contradicts science. Any scientist worth his/her diploma knows full well that there is life in a sperm and an egg and the second those two come together there is life that is real, growing, forming and becoming something incredible, mainly, a human being. However, your same scientists contradict themselves when they say it’s not life, and justify the killing of life. Please know I am setting belief in god completely aside in this argument and dealing soley with the reality of cells and chemicals that come together to form life. Again, I”m still enjoying our discussion and appreciate your responses.