Two things in response to what you just wrote…or maybe three. First, your “mountain of evidence” is the same mountain of evidence that I use. Period. Get it? I see your mountain of scientific evidence and it is amazing! I …love it! It is CLEARLY revealing the creator God who made it all and spoke it into being. We limited human beings are simply discovering this mountain of evidence which had to come into existence somehow. Here is where you get angry because I have argued all along that something cannot come from nothing. There had to be an eternally existent being, outside of our time and existence that will never be “proven” by our limited minds scientifically, because this being is not only flesh and blood but also spiritual, that brought everything into existence. I call you “limited’ because you won’t let your mind fathom something beyond your limited physical world. Second, PLEASE don’t lump me in with religion.

I am not religious by the definition you and so many others have concluded with your “rational” mindsets and your man-made definitions. And the reason that I know my faith is real and true is because my God lived in the flesh and blood, died and was raised again from the dead, and there were over 500 witnesses to this. My life has been radically changed for the better mind you, by this same God whom you say does not exist. It is not a figment of my imagination as you suppose…and you only suppose this because you have never allowed yourself to be open to having an encounter with this God. He won’t force Himself on you, nor will He force you to love him or accept him, just as you cannot force your girlfriend to love you or accept you. The gospel (which means good news) is really quite simple. We humans have turned our backs on the creator because He took a huge risk and gave us a free will to choose. He has forever and ever, since the creation of the world been SCREAMING at us through creation, through people, through science, math, language, arts, music, emotions, seasons…through everything, that He is real and is madly in love with us and wants to be in a relationship with us. We have, all of us, chosen to go our own way, figure things out for ourselves rather than inquire of Him, through science, through math, through literature, through love, through art and discover who He is. He, in His love, gave His life through Jesus that we might live with Him forever, eternally, in a loving, meaning-filled relationship both here and eternally. That’s good news! Otherwise, our lives have ZERO meaning. But that’s the conclusion you have drawn. Life has no meaning, so you will live with that. By the way, you never addresses Pascal’s wager.

Abortion: again, it is not *life* we’re arguing about, but being human. what do you mean my argument is so lame? could you elaborate? then who draws the line on what constitutes human and what does not? god? how will we know where he drew i…t? how do you know he draws it at the sperm touching the egg? an apple tree is not an apple tree until it doesn’t look like one. until then, it is just a seed. if your morals prohibit the killing of trees, you can still go into the ground and remove the seed, because it is just a seed, and a seed by definition is not a tree. human “seeds” if you will are not human beings, hence doctors are not “annihilating generations of human beings”, because the fetuses were never human beings to begin with, and whether they are or aren’t is 100% subjective; or is there an objective, absolute, ultimate standpoint on that? what is it and why is it objective, and what is it based on? feel free to express why you think abortion is outrageous, answering these questions in the process.

i think the word delusional needs some explanation: it is someone who believes in something with certainty in spite of massive evidence showing the contrary. now, what part of this applies to doctors performing abortion? because you just called them delusional (and evil, but being evil is subjective here, because it is based on your opinions on this matter, while being delusional is not, so i’ll just deal with the delusional part).

you’re going back to your “everything around us screams of a designer” argument, which i dealt with a couple hundred times during our discussion. just because our limied human mind cannot comprehend the workings of the universe, does it mean that there surely is a creator? not in the slightest, so the “this is too complex to have been a coincidence” argument is null. i repeat, null. if you think it is not, explain why not, but please, stay away from subjective claims, such as “i as a human being think (thus it must be true) that the world is too complex to have been…” because this argument is based on comprehension of our human minds being in accord with the universe’s workings, and that our concept of “too complicated” can be used when defining why the world came to exist; and those are some seriously wrong suppositions.
you gave me no objective examples that even suggest that there is a designer. all of your examples can be explained via non-god-involving ways, but if i missed something, and you have something truly objective in mind, feel free to share.

you still don’t get why i’m not religious. it has nothing to do with me not wanting to be held accountable for my actions, but everything to do with me choosing not to believe in something that there is no evidence of.
of course i could be wrong! but that DOESN’T mean you’re automatically right!
person a: might be anything, i’m not sure, i might even be wrong.
person b: it was god. i’m 100% sure. i’m so not wrong.
which mindset is better suited to consider other possibilities other than what it currently believes? person a? you bet. imagine someone who believes in another, false religion so blindly that there is nothing to convince him otherwise. for me, you are that person.

“I and the millions of other TRUE believers in the world are completely out of our minds, wrong, and have been the cause of all the problems in the world today. THAT, my friend, is a rash, judgemental statement to make.”
did i say that? not exactly. religion itself is to blame for many problems today, however not for ALL the problems of course, and i never said that, neither that individual peaceful people mindig their own business are the cause. i said religion as an idea, as a way of thinking does that, not individual people. that’s why i have no problem with religious individuals, it’s just the effects of HALF THE WORLD being religious that i hate, because it sways the whole of humanity towards “not thinking”.

“When one loses connection with the Creator, he has to invent his own form of reality”
haha, there’s no way i’m going to be the one inventing a form of reality. oh, no. i have all the evidence i need to know that the world i live in is the actual world i actually live in. YOU and half the world are the ones who invent unseen, unknowable, omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient beings. i only believe in what i am sure of, and i am only sure of what i can sense with my senses. i don’t “believe”, i “know”, and i “know” because i “experience”. you “know” because you “believe”, and that is a huge difference.

another thought: saying that through abortion, doctors “[annihilate] generations of human beings” is like saying i’m slaughtering puppies because i got my dog sterilized. preventing someone/something from being created is not the same as killing it.

A self-centered man-centered system is functioning on fear because if they ever admitted that there is a God, then they would be held accountable for their actions and their decisions. So, ultimately, it’s a cop-out on yours and so many oth…ers’ parts. You will bow your knee to no one but yourself. You cannot admit, and you have clearly shown that of late in your arguments here, that you could be wrong. You insist that I and the millions of other TRUE believers in the world are completely out of our minds, wrong, and have been the cause of all the problems in the world today. THAT, my friend, is a rash, judgemental statement to make. May I remind you of a man, a scientist, by the name of Josef Mengele, who, during WWII, used human beings for his scientific experiments and then KILLED them. He maimed, sterilized, and brutalized human beings ALL IN THE NAME OF SCIENCE!!!!!!! So, you cannot say that scientists have done nothing but good things to advance humanity because that is just a lie! In fact, the entire Nazi party propaganda preaching the annihilation of an entire people group in addition to those “less viable” in their opinions is a clear indication that scientists are not beyond evil behavior. NO ONE is beyond evil behavior….believer or unbeliever, we are all, I repeat all fallen creatures who have lost connection with our Creator. When one loses connection with the Creator, he has to invent his own form of reality, which is what you have done as have millions of others. There’s an old saying that says “God created man in His own image, and then man decided to return the favor.”

morality: until there is no live entity in the universe, there are no moral standards at all. but. as soon as a living being emerges, which is intelligent enough to be self-conscious, it will start to find out for itself what morality is, because being self-conscious implies being intelligent enough to find out morals on one’s own. “as long as there is no designer, you do not have to live according to any standards whatsoever.” wrong. i have to live according to the society’s standards; the standards that have been evolving for thousands of years. the standards that, as a human being, i, too, possess, not because they come from a creator, but because human beings, as they are intelligent enough to be self-conscious, are able to figure out morals themselves. “the very fact that you choose to live by certain standards automatically” shows not that there’s a designer’s handprint on me, but that I, as a human being, partly possess these morals in my dna, and partly learned them automatically from everyone around me (more on this later).

about ultimate morality: now, I don’t know if I should include the bible here, so I have two separate trains of thought, one including the bible, and one not.

sans bible version: i think i covered this already before, but what the hell. you’re saying that because my ultimate morality does not come from god, i cannot truly differentiate between good and evil, because i have no ultimate standard by which I could make a decision. okay. your ultimate standard for morality is the creator, aka the christian god. why him? who told you that his way should be the ultimate morality? he himself, didn’t he. how do you know that he possesses true morality? how do you know it is not for example satan who does? well, based on what god says of course, because you have no other point of reference. can you be sure that god’s morality is indeed the right one? what if satan’s morality is the right one, god just makes us believe that he is good and satan is evil? what if it’s the other way around? we have to decide somehow. what is a valid way of figuring out which one of them to pick? on our own. there is no other way. “yes there is! god tells us directly!” sure, but how do you know that he possesses the true morality? a vicious, self-contradicting circle. the only way of figuring out which one of them to pick is to figure it out on our own. but if we can do that, we eliminate the need for a creator in the first place.

bible version: ultimate morality is included in the bible, for it is god’s word. i’ve mentioned some horrible examples of morality in the bible in one of my previous posts, like the execution of homosexuals, slavery, adultery, etc. these are all religiously based absolute moralities. if this is the case, I don’t think I want an absolute morality. if you look at the standards accepted among modern people, we don’t believe in slavery anymore, oppression of women, etc. but these are all things which are entirely recent. they have little to no basis in biblical scripture, they are things that have developed over history through consensus, reasoning, arguments, moral philosophy etc, but not religion, to the extent that you have to cherrypick from the bible to find acceptable bits of good morality. if you find them, you say “oh look, that’s religion!”, and you leave out all the bits going against today’s morals, because, I don’t know. now, I hope you don’t believe in this latter “the bible is the true source of morality”. i think being able to actually reconcile some of the obviously wrong morals written in the bible with today’s standards is one of the most deranged concepts of christianity.