Virtual Internet Bible Blog

So evidence that goes against a number of religious ideas is actually “god in undercover”, because as he created everything, anything i would come up with is meaningless, because it is his creation anyway? twis…ted logic indeed, still, let me get it straight: are you saying that he very fact that everything exists is a *direct* proof of his existence? that anything existing in this world is sure to have been created by *the christian god himself*? now, matter existing in the universe is not direct proof of course that a creator, let alone the christian god of the bible as we know it created the world. hell, by that rationale, it could have been krishna or brahma or allah or whatnot. not being able to know where matter came from implies nothing, only the obvious: we. don’t. know. it implies nothing else. not even that there has to be at all an ever-existing entity to create everything. it CAN exist, of course. we just don’t have anything to imply that it does. you don’t know it, i don’t either. *firmly* believing that this creator exists is dumb. saying that it *might* exist is the only rational way to go. of course in the same fashion, declaring that there is no creator as it was a fact is dumb too. people should accept that neither side knows the truth for sure, that’s why all of the “i’m 110% sure of this and that” declarations are just delusions, be them pro- or anti-creationist.

the problem with people being sure about either of these is a very obvious one: when the universe came into existence, nobody. was. actually. there. thus we can only speculate, you and me included. i know that i can’t really be sure of anything that i don’t witness first-hand, but do you? or do you believe that you can declare with 100% certainty that you know what happened back then?

“but then why are the two theories are so different, if you’re saying that neither of them are surely true? why do you accept one and not the other?” because the difference between my view of the world and yours is that mine possesses “pieces of the puzzle” in scientific findings, and yours has none, just the very existence of the universe (look at it! doesn’t it scream of creation?!), which is in itself is no implication, let alone evidence for anything, because, as i’ve said before, it is based on the human concept of “something screams of something”, which is a gut feeling or opinion, nothing else.

ah, the 500 witnesses. i’ll ask you again: did any of them leave first-hand evidence about seeing Jesus resurrect? no. the events written in the bible are all hearsay. no actual contemporary of Jesus wrote even a single line in the bible, thus the tale of the 500 people who saw him ascend is just something that the people who wrote it simply heard, or, god forbid, made up.

your life changing for the better is as subjective as it gets. i agree that religion can be and usually is good for individual people, because they find a meaning for their lives, thus become more productive and happy. i have no problem with that, in fact, i think religion really changes individual people for the better. my grandmother’s sister for example is an even more “hardcore” believer in Christ than you are, and she’s constantly telling us that she’s been SO MUCH better off since finding god. good for her. really. and i’m not even attempting to have a conversation with her about this, because, for one, doing so in english is much more fascinating, but also because her rationalizations as to why the stuff she believes is true are so outrageous that reasoning with her is completely impossible. i’m happy that you’re not like that, but expecting me to believe what you say solely because you’ve experienced all of it is not too far from it.

god’s been screaming, eh? so he doesn’t want to remain hidden, but wants the people to KNOW that he exists? why doesn’t he prove it in a non-obscure way then? would that take away our free will to believe in him? bollocks. that’s only a bullet-proof rationalization, designed against this very question. but if you stand by it, and i believe you do, why did Jesus supposedly perform obvious miracles in front of hundreds of people? wouldn’t that take away their free will to believe in him as god? see, there is no sensible reason as to why god would “scream” his existence at us through hazy concepts, while in the meantime, failing to perform an objective act of miracle, which would prove for everyone in an instant that he indeed exists.
or there may be a reason: he hates sensible people.

Mengele: there were not only him, but a lot of deranged people, yes, mainly nazis, who experimented on people in unimaginable ways. but. they didn’t do it for the sake of the advancement of our species, but so that they can rule the world. that is not science. that’s killing people for selfish reasons and not for the good of the human race. torturing/killing/maiming/whathaveyou someone for selfish reasons and people dying in the process of the betterment of humanity are not even remotely in the same ballpark. science helps humanity advance. people torturing and killing others to develop weapons to take over the world does not. don’t confuse science with selfish mass murder. they both involve deaths, yes, but one of them is justified through everything humanity has become, the other one is just pointless, selfish killing.

if we’re at this topic though, let me remind you that the christian church killed people simply because they were not christian. they thought that the act of killing non-christians would genuinely make earth a better place. nazi officers in contrast probably knew that their endeavours would only benefit THEM and that they are selfish deeds, but the church firmly believed that god is the one who tells them to do this, so that it is justified, and even right. i’m not saying that i somehow hold you responsible for all the murder committed by the church simply because you believe in god. i understand you don’t believe in the institution itself, but Jesus, who has nothing to do with the church, as a result, you obviously don’t endorse any kind of church-approved killing, or anything it has ever done that went against the teachings of Jesus.

your religion being the right one: if i understand you correctly, you’re saying that Jesus alone is the proof that the christian faith is indeed the correct one. what about the other prophets who existed, just as Jesus did? why it is not them you’re following? all religions state that the glory of god is above all, name one that doesn’t. all of them say that all creatures are revelations and reflections of a certain god’s glory, for it was he/she who created them of course. christianity is in no way special. you could be a muslim, having the exact same mindset, having the exact same arguments of admitting god’s glory, not putting yourself but god in the middle, etc, the only difference would be your customs and the name of the god&prophet pair you believe in. the ideas you’re saying are not christian-specific, but are present in every religion i’ve ever heard of which has one single god to it. thoughts?

Well, so much for “ending” our discussion. Ha ha ha! Two things: first, you mentioned that the media is far from liberal and that America is full of Christians. Well, this lets me know how LITTLE you know about the U.S. Currently stati…stics show that any sort of Christian church involvement in the U.S. is at 4%. Unbelief is at an all-time high in this nation. Ah, yes, and we see the results of that now don’t we? (sorry, I just had to throw that in there….) Second, why should the burden of proof be on ME to prove the existence of God? why shouldn’t it be on YOU to disprove His existence?

I too have really enjoyed this. I am and will continue to pray for you, that you will be willing to be open to things spiritual; but also that God will continue to reveal Himself to you in ways you are able to understand. Oh, one more tho…ught regarding my faith being the “right” one. Religion is essentially man’s way of trying to reach God…and most religions are based on what are called “works”…you do this and you get this from god. My faith is the exact opposite: I cannot do anything to earn anything from God, and I don’t have to because He has done it all in the person of Jesus. His grace (unmerited favor) paid everything for me, for you and for every person on the planet. Lastly, life for me is not about man’s glory, but the naturalist and rationalist have put man at the center of everything and have made life about man’s glory. That’s why we’re so screwed up, even in various world religions…it’s about man at the center. In my faith, it starts with the glory of God as revealed in all of creation and all of His creatures. Each one of us is a reflection of His glory, and everything in the natural world is a reflection of His amazingly creative glory. Instead of starting from the bottom up, I begin from the top down, which brings a sobriety and a humility (in the most positive sense of the word) as I recognize that the God of the universe has chosen me to bring glory to Himself and to usher His love into this world through every means possible. And you know what, it’s ok if you think I’m a fool and foolish….the Bible has already said you would think this way about me and it’s ok. I bless you with all of His blessings in Jesus! Thank you for this amazing dialogue! You are a treasure!

Having only scanned through your last posts and glancing at the pascal’s wager part, about which i happened to read like 2 days ago, i which is interesting to involve, because it is a proposition seemingly working for believers, but it back…fires the following way:

the problem with the wager’s reasoning is that there are a myriad of gods people have worshiped throughout history, so essentially anyone who is/was religious can/could make the claims of the wager, this way it shows that all gods humans believe in are imaginary. believers in one specific god has not “lost nothing”, they simply commit themselves to a lifetime of delusion instead of reality.

the fact that there are so many gods proves that all of those gods are imaginary. this goes back to me asking you about how can it be known that your religion is the true one – there is no answer. if there was one and only one omniscient, omnipotent god, it would be obvious for everyone, and people would all agree on him being the only one god.

i’m off to sleep now, i’ll respond to your other points, which i have yet to read, tomorrow. good night!